All-time Sox team

[dunaja]

I'm sure this thread has happened before in the past, but I just want to give my all-time team by position and encourage those who have not already done this to give theirs. I am inspired by the vote on the redsox.com homepage, but I hate that one because it wants only the best hitters (couldn't vote for Varitek or for a pitcher). Instead, my best all-around team:

C Jason Varitek - 2003
1B Jimmy Foxx - 1938
2B Dustin Pedroia - 2008
SS Nomar Garciaparra - 2000
3B Wade Boggs - 1987
OF Carl Yastrzemski - 1967
OF Ted Williams - 1941
OF Jim Rice - 1978
DH David Ortiz - 2005
P Pedro Martinez - 1999

Thoughts?

[Redsoxfan57]

I would probably add Pudge Fisk

[sprocketboy]

I'm sure this thread has happened before in the past, but I just want to give my all-time team by position and encourage those who have not already done this to give theirs. I am inspired by the vote on the redsox.com homepage, but I hate that one because it wants only the best hitters (couldn't vote for Varitek or for a pitcher). Instead, my best all-around team:

C Jason Varitek - 2003
1B Jimmy Foxx - 1938
2B Dustin Pedroia - 2008
SS Nomar Garciaparra - 2000
3B Wade Boggs - 1987
OF Carl Yastrzemski - 1967
OF Ted Williams - 1941
OF Jim Rice - 1978
DH David Ortiz - 2005
P Pedro Martinez - 1999

Thoughts?

Well, Pedro won the Cy Young Award in 1999, after going 23-4 with a 2.07 ERA. That's a strong case.

However, if you are including the team that became the Red Sox (the Boston Americans) in the discussion, I think I'll give the nod to the man for whom Pedro's award that year is named (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/y/youngcy01.shtml?redir), for his efforts in the 1903 season (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/BOS/1903.shtml).

Cy Young led the Americans' rotation in that first championship year by posting a 28-9 record with a 2.08 ERA and a 0.969 WHIP.

"But wait," you say, "batting averages and OPS stats were just lower in those days, so it's no fair comparing Pedro's ERA during the steroid era against Cy Young's during the dead-ball era."

Well, in 1903, the ball wasn't exactly dead for Cy Young the hitter. He batted .321 with 1 HR, 14 RBI, and an OPS of .771 in 1903, in 146 plate appearances. Not too shabby for a pitcher.

Did I mention that the Americans won the World Series that year?

[dunaja]

Well, Pedro won the Cy Young Award in 1999, after going 23-4 with a 2.07 ERA. That's a strong case.

However, if you are including the team that became the Red Sox (the Boston Americans) in the discussion, I think I'll give the nod to the man for whom Pedro's award that year is named (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/y/youngcy01.shtml?redir), for his efforts in the 1903 season (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/BOS/1903.shtml).

Cy Young led the Americans' rotation in that first championship year by posting a 28-9 record with a 2.08 ERA and a 0.969 WHIP.

"But wait," you say, "batting averages and OPS stats were just lower in those days, so it's no fair comparing Pedro's ERA during the steroid era against Cy Young's during the dead-ball era."

Well, in 1903, the ball wasn't exactly dead for Cy Young the hitter. He batted .321 with 1 HR, 14 RBI, and an OPS of .771 in 1903, in 146 plate appearances. Not too shabby for a pitcher.

Did I mention that the Americans won the World Series that year?


A good argument, but did Cy Young strike out the first four batters he faced in the All-Star Game that year, earning him MVP honors?

I rest my case.

[sprocketboy]

A good argument, but did Cy Young strike out the first four batters he faced in the All-Star Game that year, earning him MVP honors?

I rest my case.

Seeing as how they didn't even have an All-Star game until 1933, 22 years after Cy Young retired ... no, Cy Young never struck out anyone in an All-Star game.

If you want to key on single accomplishments like that (rather than entire seasons), then why not pick Babe Ruth from the Championship Season of 1918? In that season, Ruth the Pitcher went 13-7 with a 2.22 ERA, which is okay. But Ruth the Hitter had six stolen bases ... including a steal of home plate against the St. Louis Browns on August 24th (http://www.sabr.org/cmsFiles/Files/Base_Stealing_by_Pitchers.pdf).

I guarantee Pedro never pulled that one off.

[3 Point Stan]

Did Cy Young hurl Don Zimmer to the ground? No he didn't.

Advantage: PEDRO

I rest my case.

[taltos]

A few changes:
Fisk for Tek
Malzone for Boggs
Evans for Rice
Doerr for Pedroia
Cy Young for the Dominican Diva

[Mark_Henderson]

A few changes:
Fisk for Tek
Malzone for Boggs
Evans for Rice
Doerr for Pedroia
Cy Young for the Dominican Diva


I think Fisk is a slam dunk, I don't know enough about Doerr, and I'd nix the others, except for haviong Dewy on the bench as a late inning defensive replacement. Obviously, he'd be better in right than Rice, but I'd go with Rice's bat. Williams wasn't known for defense either, so maybe put Yaz in center.

[nomars_girl]

I would definitely replace Tek with Fisk. Tek may have the rings, but Fisk was badass.

I have no problem with Pedro though. Pedro's peaks were so far above any of his peers that it was ridiculous. Cy was pitching in a pitching era. Pedro was pitching in the juiced ball/juiced player era.

Oh, and take a look at the leaderboard for adjusted ERA+

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/earned_run_avg_plus_season.shtml

[sprocketboy]

Pedro won awards in 1999 and 2000 for pitching like Cy Young in those years.

Cy Young pitched like Cy Young every year ... because he was Cy Freaking Young.

I rest my case.

Edit (to nomar's girl): Your point about Pedro vs. his peers in 1999 is well-taken. However, I still give a lot of weight to the fact that Cy Young led his rotation in a Championship Season.

[dunaja]

no, Cy Young never struck out anyone in an All-Star game.

I accept your apology.

[dunaja]

A few changes:
Fisk for Tek
Malzone for Boggs
Evans for Rice
Doerr for Pedroia
Cy Young for the Dominican Diva

I understand that Fisk is way better offensively but I took Tek because of the way he handles the pitching staff. He's the only catcher to catch 4 no-hitters, and I think there's a lot to that. I picked 2003 because he had his best offensive year then, in my opinion that 2003 squad may have been the best Red Sox lineup ever, there was no reason to hit him higher than ninth, and his numbers were phenomenal for a ninth hitter.

I think I rushed my Boggs pick, should have given Frank Malzone more thought. Looked up his stats and number of all-star appearances, plus 3 gold gloves... yeah it may very well be Malzone as all-time 3rd baseman.

Evans... what year? Eh, interchangeable.

I thought about Doerr v. Pedroia for a while, guarantee you that pick wasn't easy. Really wasn't. Our all-time team has 2nd-base-by-committee, perhaps.

I stand by Pedro over Cy. Baseball was a different sport back then. Pedro's stats were in the everyone's-doing-steroids-but-no-one's-getting-caught, McGwire-and-Sosa-are-my-heroes era. I'm impressed.

[sprocketboy]

I accept your apology.

You mean, like this?


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[dunaja]

You mean, like this?


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Exactly.