For Openers......

[NEM]

Let's split up and see where everyone stands.... So, let's look at how everyone answers the following questions, and then we can begin some serious discussion.

1: Why did we attack Iraq in 2003?

2: Why are we still in Iraq?

3: Are we in a war in Iraq, or an occupation?

4: Who are we fighting in Iraq, and why?

5: Who are the terrorists that, allegedly, are in Iraq, and where did they come from?

More later.

[QuiGon]

Let's split up and see where everyone stands.... So, let's look at how everyone answers the following questions, and then we can begin some serious discussion.

1: Why did we attack Iraq in 2003?

2: Why are we still in Iraq?

3: Are we in a war in Iraq, or an occupation?

4: Who are we fighting in Iraq, and why?

5: Who are the terrorists that, allegedly, are in Iraq, and where did they come from?

More later.If a bitter, frustrated old fool yells and screams in a forest with no one present, does he really make a sound...?

[NEM]

If a bitter, frustrated old fool yells and screams in a forest with no one present, does he really make a sound...?

You are not gonna believe this, but I am glad to see you.

Really.

We are on opposite ends of the political spectrum, but we have had many good, and bad, times posting about it, even with your nine different names. :blink: Just kidding, I know it was only three.

This forum is sort of quiet. Do ya think we can light it up?

[QuiGon]

You are not gonna believe this, but I am glad to see you.

Really.Well I always said that neither you nor I should have been banned from the other site... I don't know exactly what has been going on over there, but I maintain that opinion...

Hey, at least you garnered a response from the admin over there... I have written him multiple times and never received a single response... maybe you can give me his phone number...? (That was a joke, people.... just a joke.... I am not going to be phoning anyone...)
We are on opposite ends of the political spectrum, but we have had many good, and bad, times posting about it, even with your nine different names. :blink: Just kidding, I know it was only three.

This forum is sort of quiet. Do ya think we can light it up?Hey if you wanna talk politics, I'm game.... but I am not going to get into the same tired old boring Bush-bashing, Iraq war posts you always give... with all due respect, all you do is post the exact same Bush-Iraq stuff over and over again...

[NEM]

Wwith all due respect, all you do is post the exact same Bush-Iraq stuff over and over again...

If the bashing is deserved, then I will bash him, and the reason why is because there is, absolutely, no need for the death, and destruction, not only to Americans, but to tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis, too.

Our men volunteered to defend the Constitution of the United States, not to be embroiled in an internationally illegal occupation of a sovereign nation that is on the edge of a civil war, one that we may have created.

Mister Bush, and the others in his administration lied, in total, about the reasons we are in Iraq, and the mission has changed over and over again when the previous, alleged, mission is show to be more lies.

Here, try these on for openers. And please, dons'[t respond by attacking the messenger. Try debating, and debunking, each of the items below.

These pertain to Iraq, only. There are hundreds more that are all, proven, lies on other issues, too. But let's start with these.

Let's keep it civil and stick to the topics. OK?

Here, try these on.

================================================== =====
Remember: They Are Liars
By William Rivers Pitt
t r u t h o u t | Columnist

Tuesday 08 April 2008


George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz, Condoleezza Rice, along with a slew of administration underlings and a revolving-door cavalcade of brass hats from the Pentagon, have been making claims regarding Iraq for many years now.

They claimed Iraq was in possession of 26,000 liters of anthrax, "enough to kill several million people," according to a page on the White House web site titled Disarm Saddam Hussein.

They lied.

They claimed Iraq was in possession of 38,000 liters of botulinum toxin.

They lied.

They claimed Iraq was in possession of 500 tons, which equals 1,000,000 pounds, of sarin, mustard and VX nerve agent.

They lied.

They claimed Iraq was in possession of nearly 30,000 munitions capable of delivering these agents.

They lied.

They claimed Iraq was in possession of several mobile biological weapons labs.

They lied.

They claimed Iraq was operating an "advanced" nuclear weapons program.

They lied.

They claimed Iraq had been seeking "significant quantities" of uranium from Africa for use in this "advanced" nuclear weapons program.

They lied.

They claimed Iraq attempted to purchase high-strength aluminum tubes "suitable for nuclear weapons."

They lied.

They claimed America needed to invade, overthrow and occupy Iraq in order to remove this menace from our world. "It would take just one vial, one canister, one crate slipped into this country," went the White House line, "to bring a day of horror like none we have ever known."

They lied.

"Simply stated," said Dick Cheney in August of 2002, "there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction."

Liar.

"Right now," said George W. Bush in September of 2002, "Iraq is expanding and improving facilities that were used for the production of nuclear weapons."

Liar.

"We know for a fact," said White House Press Secretary Ari Fleischer in January of 2003, "that there are weapons there."

Liar.

"We know that Saddam Hussein is determined to keep his weapons of mass destruction," said Colin Powell in February of 2003, "is determined to make more."

Liar.

"We know where they are," said Donald Rumsfeld in March of 2003. "They are in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad, and east, south, west and north somewhat."

Liar.

"The Iraqi people understand what this crisis is about," said Paul Wolfowitz in March of 2003. "Like the people of France in the 1940s, they view us as their hoped-for liberator."

Liar.

"No one ever said that we knew precisely where all of these agents were," said Condoleezza Rice in June of 2003, "where they were stored."

Liar.

"I have absolute confidence that there are weapons of mass destruction inside this country," said Gen. Tommy Franks in April of 2003. "Whether we will turn out, at the end of the day, to find them in one of the 2,000 or 3,000 sites we already know about or whether contact with one of these officials who we may come in contact with will tell us, 'Oh, well, there's actually another site,' and we'll find it there, I'm not sure."

Wrong.

"Before the war," said Gen. Michael Hagee in May of 2003, "there's no doubt in my mind that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction, biological and chemical. I expected them to be found. I still expect them to be found."

Wrong.

"Given time," said Gen. Richard Myers in May of 2003, "given the number of prisoners now that we're interrogating, I'm confident that we're going to find weapons of mass destruction."

Wrong.

"Do I think we're going to find something? Yeah, I kind of do," said Maj. Gen. Keith Dayton in May of 2003, "because I think there's a lot of information out there."

Wrong.

Gen. David Petraeus, commander of US forces in Iraq, is about to give testimony before the Senate regarding the current state of affairs in that battle-savaged country. He is a political general, one of many America has seen and heard over the last five years, one who would leap nude from the Capitol dome before telling the real truth about matters in Iraq ... or who would speak using words fed to him by liars, and thus be wrong.

Remember: they lie. They all lie, from the top man down to the bottom. If their lips are moving, a lie is unfolding. If they say water is wet, get into the shower to make sure.

They lie.

Period.

End of file.



---------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------
William Rivers Pitt is a New York Times and internationally bestselling author of two books: "War on Iraq: What Team Bush Doesn't Want You to Know" and "The Greatest Sedition Is Silence." His newest book, "House of Ill Repute: Reflections on War, Lies, and America's Ravaged Reputation," is now available from PoliPointPress.

[QuiGon]

Here, try these on for openers. And please, dons'[t respond by attacking the messenger. Try debating, and debunking, each of the items below.Dude... I am not attacking the messenger... all I am saying is this is stuff we've gone back and forth on 1,000 times already.... I'm really just sick of the subject. There's so much more going on in the political world right now instead of the same tired old bullcrap we've been going back and forth on for years and you're still using the same tired old cut-and-paste articles I've seen 1,000 times already. If that's all you are willing to discuss, then I will not be taking part.

[NEM]

Dude... I am not attacking the messenger... all I am saying is this is stuff we've gone back and forth on 1,000 times already.... I'm really just sick of the subject. There's so much more going on in the political world right now instead of the same tired old bullcrap we've been going back and forth on for years and you're still using the same tired old cut-and-paste articles I've seen 1,000 times already. If that's all you are willing to discuss, then I will not be taking part.

I didnt say you were attacking the messenger, just suggested that you not do it.

And, IMO, and in the opinion of millions of Americans, the Iraqi Situation IS the most important thing going on right now, and right in the middle of the presidential campaign.

Sure, there are many other things to discuss, and I will, as long as they pertain to events that are happening now. For example, how many times have some of your compadres always drifted off topic and then, all of a sudden the name of Bill Clinton comes up, out of the blue...

So, this is mky first post in this forum, regarding the lies that got us in to Iraq, and because of John McCain's staunch support for it, I believe it is important enough to discuss.

If you have no response to the, alleged lies, that fine too.

[QuiGon]

And, IMO, and in the opinion of millions of Americans, the Iraqi Situation IS the most important thing going on right now, and right in the middle of the presidential campaign.Actually it's been quite some time since the subject of the Iraq War has been getting top page headlines.
If you have no response to the, alleged lies, that fine too.Oh, I have a response. And you've read it about 250 times on the other forum. So you'll just have to reference my old posts over there if you want my response on this subject that has been beaten to death ad infinitum.

[NEM]

Actually it's been quite some time since the subject of the Iraq War has been getting top page headlines.

Only in righty papers cause they dont want to talk about it, knowing it is all based on lies, and will kill McCain's chances. It's a good strategy that is used many times, NEVER BRING UP A NEGATIVE. That being the case, and you don't want to discuss it, that's fine with me. I can move on to something else, if it works for you.

See, I'm easy.

Oh, I have a response. And you've read it about 250 times on the other forum. So you'll just have to reference my old posts over there if you want my response on this subject that has been beaten to death ad infinitum.

.........................

[QuiGon]

Only in righty papers cause they dont want to talk about it, knowing it is all based on lies, and will kill McCain's chances. It's a good strategy that is used many times, NEVER BRING UP A NEGATIVE.Well, let's see what the MSM has to say on the subject.... here's what we got right now at this moment on ABCNews.com (presented in order of how the story is on the website):
1. Polygamist Sect
2. Delta-Northwest Merger
3. Pope Coming to America
4. Condolezza denies interest in VP
5. Rep apologizes for calling Obama "boy"
6. Israel Snubs Carter
7. Reality TV Director
8. Man survives 1,500 foot fall

Whoops..!! Not exactly Iraq dominated, huh...? Let's see what MSNBC has...

1. Delta-Northwest Merger
2. Polygamist Sect
3. Contractor fraud loophole
4. Death for those who rape children?
5. Bush's climate proposal
6. Google fighting child porn
7. Pompeii for rent
8. Berlusconi wins 3rd term

Sorry... just not seeing much on Iraq dominating the headlines... I gotta rest my case...

[fightingdoxies]

Let's split up and see where everyone stands.... So, let's look at how everyone answers the following questions, and then we can begin some serious discussion.

1: Why did we attack Iraq in 2003?

2: Why are we still in Iraq?

3: Are we in a war in Iraq, or an occupation?

4: Who are we fighting in Iraq, and why?

5: Who are the terrorists that, allegedly, are in Iraq, and where did they come from?

More later.

Don't get me wrong, i don't follow everything but with my personal feelings i'll give it a shot.

1: Why did we attack Iraq in 2003? I thought it was for the oil. Thats what everybody said. Now going to the pumps and paying 3.30 a gal, im very disappointed everyone was wrong

2: Why are we still in Iraq? Simple answer, if we leave, insurgents blow up, lop of heads, and take over existing gov't thus undoing everything that has been changed and making all deaths up to this point a complete waste.

3: Are we in a war in Iraq, or an occupation? We are the police. What do we get for this service.... I have no idea. Probably a country that will eventually grow to hate us anyways

4: Who are we fighting in Iraq, and why? Everyone who does not want change and will do anything to kill us till we leave.

5: Who are the terrorists that, allegedly, are in Iraq, and where did they come from? I haven't a clue.

[NEM]

Don't get me wrong, i don't follow everything but with my personal feelings i'll give it a shot.

1: Why did we attack Iraq in 2003? I thought it was for the oil. Thats what everybody said. Now going to the pumps and paying 3.30 a gal, im very disappointed everyone was wrong

2: Why are we still in Iraq? Simple answer, if we leave, insurgents blow up, lop of heads, and take over existing gov't thus undoing everything that has been changed and making all deaths up to this point a complete waste.

3: Are we in a war in Iraq, or an occupation? We are the police. What do we get for this service.... I have no idea. Probably a country that will eventually grow to hate us anyways

4: Who are we fighting in Iraq, and why? Everyone who does not want change and will do anything to kill us till we leave.

5: Who are the terrorists that, allegedly, are in Iraq, and where did they come from? I haven't a clue.

Thanks for the well thought out response. Let me respond to number 1 with the following link to an article I wrote over a year ago that has been published in many locations. Then, when I return later today, I will respond to items 2 - 5..

Here's the link.

http://edschultz.invisionzone.com/lofiversion/index.php/t26142.html


[B]There are, also, two follow ups to that article, written in the past two months.

[fightingdoxies]

Thanks for the well thought out response. Let me respond to number 1 with the following link to an article I wrote over a year ago that has been published in many locations. Then, when I return later today, I will respond to items 2 - 5..

Here's the link.

http://edschultz.invisionzone.com/lofiversion/index.php/t26142.html


[B]There are, also, two follow ups to that article, written in the past two months.

Interesting article but like i said before.. i don't follow that closely. Its beyond me. I'm a simpleton. Basic simplicity is its a bad war that was really not well thought out. If we were going there for oil, we failed. (just to let everyone know, i never thought the war was to get oil) We have a problem with oil... Gas prices are rising with no stop in sight. Our president family business is in oil.... Lee Raymond receives a retirement and severance package of approximately $400 million, I pump my gas and wish that the hand cleaner they have was actually KY Jelly to make taking it a little more pleasant.

[fightingdoxies]

Ok my thoughts on the war. (note: these are my opinion, theories, I have no proof and i will not look for proof.. take it as it is) We will never win this war, i don't care who we have planning it or running the show. Why? Simple answer, they have a better army than we do. Why would i say such a thing... History people. Those who don't learn from it are doomed to repeat it. Before i go on I WANT TO STRESS THIS IS IN NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM A DIG AT OUR MILITARY OR MILITARY PERSONEL!!!!! i have the utmost respect for all of them. now back to history. Why do we go to war. Either A. to conquer, or B. to stop others from conquering. We are doing neither. We are policing. We are defending Iraq from who? From itself, so to speak. So how do they have a better army. Lets look at the Revolutionary war. Who had the better army? England if you look at shear power. Thats us right now. So how did we win? Change tactics. Throw out the old rule book and find a way that enables you to win. Sound familiar? We are still playing by the same rules (because to not do so would make us look bad and we hold ourselves to a higher standard) Think they care about that... absolutely no. All they care about is killing as many as possible till we leave by any means necessary. General Grant i believe once said of the weapons of the mexico war that person could be shooting at you from 500 yards or whatever it was and you'd never even know they were shoot at you. Come time of the civil war rifles became extremely accurate from further away. One problem, the tactics never changed. End result... many many deaths. Improving weapons means nothing if tactics don't change. They blend in... you could walk past one and never know what side they were on. We stick out. You plant a bomb, wait till we are near it... set it off... move on, blend in. If we leave, they win. There is no good solution.. only needless loss of lives