So....remind me again...

[luso2kx]

...why Papelbon would be better used in the pen.

And tell me once again how Tavarez is "just a 5th starter"...

[3 Point Stan]

Are you hinting that Papelbon would serve a better purpose in the rotation?

[fightingdoxies]

...why Papelbon would be better used in the pen.

And tell me once again how Tavarez is "just a 5th starter"...

i admit i am one of the people that liked tavarez and thought that with run support he would be just fine as a 5th starter. right now... i have nothing to say.:(

[oldskool138]

Yeah, I think the Julian "El Loco" Tavarez Era is coming to a close. I know Lester isn't exactly lighting up AAA but he can't be any worse than Tavarez.

[fightingdoxies]

The sad part is... when schill gets back, i think i know who will be sent down and unfortunately i think its a mistake

[nomars_girl]

I always felt that Papelbon would be more useful in the rotation. What is the point of having a lights out closer if we can't keep a lead in the early innings? When was the last time Papelbon pitched anyway? Total waste. Put him in the rotation and get rid of Tavarez. Then it gets a little tricky when Schilling comes back since Gabbard has been pitching really well.

[Mikiemo83]

The sad part is... when schill gets back, i think i know who will be sent down and unfortunately i think its a mistakeyeah delcarman with Tavarez going to the pen and Gabbard our lefty starter

[luso2kx]

Are you hinting that Papelbon would serve a better purpose in the rotation?
4.2 total innings pitched since June 30th...

Yes, I think he'd be better used in the rotation. Having him in the pen was a mistake to begin with.

I'm certain SC or any other Tito/coaching staff sympathizer will tell me how it's so much better to have Tavarez stinking it up once every 5 days and how it's so cool to hear "Wild Thing" in the 9th inning.

[kgsmith]

here we go again.. two months ago, redsox nation was thrilled with Tavarez, and said he was great for the rotation.. even up to last week, the fans loved him. he has a bad game, and people want him gone.. I am a diehard sox fan, and I was never a fan of julian's but come on people, you change your minds as often as I change my boxers..

[oldskool138]

I was never all that thrilled when they announced that Tavarez was going into the rotation. I wanted Paps to be pitching every fifth day. You would have had three 26 year old guns in the rotation and then Schilling and Wake.

I was cautiously optimistic when El Loco had a string of success...Now, I want to give Lester (or someone else) a shot.

[luso2kx]

here we go again.. two months ago, redsox nation was thrilled with Tavarez, and said he was great for the rotation.. even up to last week, the fans loved him. he has a bad game, and people want him gone.. I am a diehard sox fan, and I was never a fan of julian's but come on people, you change your minds as often as I change my boxers..FWIW, I wanted Papelbon to start since day 1 this year. There was no reason whatsoever for him to have been a closer this season. That's one of the most overrated roles on a team.

[luso2kx]

It just pisses me off that, no matter how me and some others kept pointing that Tavarbage was not that good and that we made a big mistake moving Papelbon to the pen because "he asked to", and there was this contingency that was screaming "It's just the 5th starter! It's not that important!"

Bah!

[Mikiemo83]

so they let Pineiro close the games blow 1/3 of the wins Paps saved and all we hear from the fans is move Paps to the Closer spot

[luso2kx]

so they let Pineiro close the games blow 1/3 of the wins Paps saved and all we hear from the fans is move Paps to the Closer spotI hear this Hideki Okajima guy is pretty good...

[fightingdoxies]

here we go again.. two months ago, redsox nation was thrilled with Tavarez, and said he was great for the rotation.. even up to last week, the fans loved him. he has a bad game, and people want him gone.. I am a diehard sox fan, and I was never a fan of julian's but come on people, you change your minds as often as I change my boxers..

Oh don't get me wrong... I was a fan of Tavarez in the rotation, but just like your comment about WMP, how much time do you give these guys to work it out before you say, " ok a change is needed" ?

[Mikiemo83]

I hear this Hideki Okajima guy is pretty good...so who gets you to Oki

set up your pen from the 6.2 inning mark to the closer

[luso2kx]

so who gets you to Oki

set up your pen from the 6.2 inning mark to the closer

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=7612

Next question

[Mikiemo83]

so Manny goes the last out in the 7th, the 8th and Oki in the 9th - you need another guy for the 7th or you will Torre your Bullpen

[luso2kx]

so Manny goes the last out in the 7th, the 8th and Oki in the 9th - you need another guy for the 7th or you will Torre your BullpenSo, what you're saying is that Timlin(who is actually been pitching solid), Snyder and Lopez can't split some work for the 7th?

Interesting...

[BossHogg30]

I think we are starting to panic a little to early. The Sox will be ok. Don't forget we have Lester, Clay, some other very good pitching prospects. Also don't forget Schilling will be back to help. No need to start the Papelbon as a starter talks just yet.

[Mikiemo83]

So, what you're saying is that Timlin(who is actually been pitching solid), Snyder and Lopez can't split some work for the 7th?

Interesting...I just remember Paps getting hit the second time through the lineup in spring training, I remember Manny delcarmen being hit in Pawtucket earlier in the year, I remember Lopez being a call-up about a month ago and I remember Timlin out on the DL
so for the month of April and MAy when the Sox were playing 700 ball you would of had Donnelly, Pinero setting up Oki not Oki setting up PAps


so with that change in the pen the team would more then likely be tied with NY at this point


or are you suggersting taking a player on a strict pitching routine and taking him out of his current comfort zone, placing him in pawtucket for a 3 weeks while he stretches out to be a starter leaving the same group in the rotation and you with out a top of the line closer


Guess I got it all wrong wanting to see Gabbard stay, and lester replace Tavarez until shill is ready and then the lesser of Lester/Gabbard gets sent down. See Tavarez is good the 1st time through the order but getting slapped around like A-Rods purse the 2nd/3rd time through the orders so a stint in the pen makes total sense improving that aspect of your club and possibly getting him going for the next two weeks to trade off

[luso2kx]

I just remember Paps getting hit the second time through the lineup in spring training, I remember Manny delcarmen being hit in Pawtucket earlier in the year, I remember Lopez being a call-up about a month ago and I remember Timlin out on the DL
so for the month of April and MAy when the Sox were playing 700 ball you would of had Donnelly, Pinero setting up Oki not Oki setting up PAps


so with that change in the pen the team would more then likely be tied with NY at this point


or are you suggersting taking a player on a strict pitching routine and taking him out of his current comfort zone, placing him in pawtucket for a 3 weeks while he stretches out to be a starter leaving the same group in the rotation and you with out a top of the line closer


Guess I got it all wrong wanting to see Gabbard stay, and lester replace Tavarez until shill is ready and then the lesser of Lester/Gabbard gets sent down. See Tavarez is good the 1st time through the order but getting slapped around like A-Rods purse the 2nd/3rd time through the orders so a stint in the pen makes total sense improving that aspect of your club and possibly getting him going for the next two weeks to trade offOk, where to start:

1) Yeah, Papelbon was getting hit the 2nd time around. It's also to note that he was getting acclaimated to the role and that he would improve. You said Delcarmen was getting hit in spring training. How's he doing now?

2) Why would we send Papelbon to Pawtucket? Remember how Derek Lowe was converted in 2001? 3-4 inning starts his first time outs and let him go from there. How would that hurt us more than the crap Tavarez is throwing now?

3) Julian Tavarez was, is and will always be crap. There's no going around the subject. During his little streak this season, I was calling for his trade because I knew this decline would happen. It was all too common of an occurance for him his entire career.

4) This bullpen has been working perectly without Papelbon's use. Like I said, 4.2 innings pitched since June 30th, on pace for a measly 55 ip this season. This pen can work without his presence in it. Period, end of story.

[Mikiemo83]

Ok, where to start:

1) Yeah, Papelbon was getting hit the 2nd time around. It's also to note that he was getting acclaimated to the role and that he would improve. You said Delcarmen was getting hit in spring training. How's he doing now?

2) Why would we send Papelbon to Pawtucket? Remember how Derek Lowe was converted in 2001? 3-4 inning starts his first time outs and let him go from there. How would that hurt us more than the crap Tavarez is throwing now?

3) Julian Tavarez was, is and will always be crap. There's no going around the subject. During his little streak this season, I was calling for his trade because I knew this decline would happen. It was all too common of an occurance for him his entire career.

4) This bullpen has been working perectly without Papelbon's use. Like I said, 4.2 innings pitched since June 30th, on pace for a measly 55 ip this season. This pen can work without his presence in it. Period, end of story.
1, Manny sucked ass this season until mid June in Pawtucket - finally getting it - give me a replacement for the 1st 8 weeks of the season -you can't and the pen would have blow more games than Tavares did starting

2, you are kidding correct? Paps is a fireballer with who suffered a "subluxation" of his shoulder, again a "subluxation" of his shoulder, Lowe was a junk baller with a rubber arm - the two do not make a justifiabe comparision completely different situations

3, no arguement, trade high by low but still doesn't solve the issues in the pen by trading one of your arms you would have needed to replace Oki who replaced Paps

4, add in the all-star break, and the team's offense sucking ass and of course his innings are going to be down, it is simple - why throw him in a loss if you beleive he will be used the next night

[3 Point Stan]

4.2 total innings pitched since June 30th...

Yes, I think he'd be better used in the rotation. Having him in the pen was a mistake to begin with.

I'm certain SC or any other Tito/coaching staff sympathizer will tell me how it's so much better to have Tavarez stinking it up once every 5 days and how it's so cool to hear "Wild Thing" in the 9th inning.
The day before the All Star Break, when the Sox had the best record in all of MLB, were you honestly thinking this then?

Guys, if the 2003 Red Sox were not indication enough for you, you NEED a lights-out closer to win. You really do. Guys like Jonathan Papelbon are not easily replaced and regardless, he's NOT going to the rotation anytime in 2007. Hes just not.

[luso2kx]

The day before the All Star Break, when the Sox had the best record in all of MLB, were you honestly thinking this then?Is this a joke? I've never changed my stance on this all season long.

It was a joke that the reason Papelbon was moved to closer again was because "he asked to". That's the dumbest excuse in the book and the front office should be ashamed to insult the intelligence of the fanbase in such a nature.

Want proof? Try going to the ESPN board a few times and see that I and about 3 others were in this minority all season long.

[EverettsTheoryOfEvolution]

Overall, Tavarez has done what's been asked of him (fill in for awhile and be generally average overall). That being said, no one ever thought of him being a long term solution - most of us felt like we would get Lester back by the ASB at the latest, and then everything would be happy again. Lester not performing well has thrown a monkey wrench in those plans, and Schill getting hurt didnt help (though could've been foreseen, I suppose. I'll admit to being on the wrong side of the 'sign Schill to an extension' debate before the season). I still think the plan was the correct one, and, in fact, it put us in fantastic position - I don't think anyone can argue that - but now it's come time to reassess what the current options are, because this can't continue for the rest of the season.

[luso2kx]

1, Manny sucked ass this season until mid June in Pawtucket - finally getting it - give me a replacement for the 1st 8 weeks of the season -you can't and the pen would have blow more games than Tavares did starting
And now he's a solid setup guy next to Okajima. Your point?

2, you are kidding correct? Paps is a fireballer with who suffered a "subluxation" of his shoulder, again a "subluxation" of his shoulder, Lowe was a junk baller with a rubber arm - the two do not make a justifiabe comparision completely different situationsSo, when the docs initially said his shoulder couldn't handle the abuse of relieving and that, if he started, he'd be able to get a solid training schedule going while having 4 guaranteed days of rest, while not needing to throw as hard since he could work on an effective 3rd and 4th pitch. Now it's that he wouldn't handle the abuse of relieving?

3, no arguement, trade high by low but still doesn't solve the issues in the pen by trading one of your arms you would have needed to replace Oki who replaced PapsAgain, Delcarmen is pitching lights out. Why is this even an issue?

4, add in the all-star break, and the team's offense sucking ass and of course his innings are going to be down, it is simple - why throw him in a loss if you beleive he will be used the next nightSo it's better to see Tavarbage give up 5-8 runs every 5 days rather than see Papelbon develop into the #2-#3 guy he was initially projected to be?

[southcarolina]

Luso i like you, and i respect your right to have you opinion, and i even enjoy our little debates. But dont call me out personally. Thats bush league. I have a right to my opinions just like you do yours.

[luso2kx]

Luso i like you, and i respect your right to have you opinion, and i even enjoy our little debates. But dont call me out personally. Thats bush league. I have a right to my opinions just like you do yours.Sorry, applying ESPN board rules on that one :)

[3 Point Stan]

Sorry, applying ESPN board rules on that one :)
Want to know a joke?

The ESPN board. That's a joke.

:)

[Mikiemo83]

Luso my points are where would the Sox be today if Paps started in the rotation? the 1st 8-10 weeks of the season you would have had Oki and no one else in the pen

and what Damage are you risking to PAps to change him mid season from Closer to starter - I would say no big deal going Starter to closer but the shoulder issue is concerning, remember how difficult is was for Shilling to switch back and forth

[BossHogg30]

Would anyone be willing to trade Papelbon or Okajima for a good starting pitcher, knowing that the person we didn't trade could be our closer?

[luso2kx]

Luso my points are where would the Sox be today if Paps started in the rotation? the 1st 8-10 weeks of the season you would have had Oki and no one else in the pen

and what Damage are you risking to PAps to change him mid season from Closer to starter - I would say no big deal going Starter to closer but the shoulder issue is concerning, remember how difficult is was for Shilling to switch back and forthOk 2 things:

1) What the pen might've been earlier is irrelevant now. We're now able to convert Paps and not suffer anything in the pen. He's not even being used for crying out loud.

2) Schilling is a fat slob with a big mouth who only gets his fat ass off the computer and into the gym after the front office, media and fanbase drill it into his thick skull that he's fat. Of course his conversion wasn't too good. Papelbon is in shape and trains regularly. He can make the conversion easily.

PS: Like I said earier. What would be so different with Papelbon going 3-4 innings now and going more as the season went along as compared to Tavarbage always going 4 innings and getting lit up like a Roman Candle?

[southcarolina]

Would anyone be willing to trade Papelbon or Okajima for a good starting pitcher, knowing that the person we didn't trade could be our closer?


Define "good" starting pitcher. Besides, it wont happen. The teams looking for bullpen help are exactly the teams that arent going to be giving up starters, namely the temas still in the playoff hunt. A team not going anywhere isnt going to looking for bullpen help.

[Mikiemo83]

Ok 2 things:

1) What the pen might've been earlier is irrelevant now. We're now able to convert Paps and not suffer anything in the pen. He's not even being used for crying out loud.

2) Schilling is a fat slob with a big mouth who only gets his fat ass off the computer and into the gym after the front office, media and fanbase drill it into his thick skull that he's fat. Of course his conversion wasn't too good. Papelbon is in shape and trains regularly. He can make the conversion easily.

PS: Like I said earier. What would be so different with Papelbon going 3-4 innings now and going more as the season went along as compared to Tavarbage always going 4 innings and getting lit up like a Roman Candle?

1 you have faith in Manny and the others to set up a junk throwing closer?
I don't - Timlin CAN NOT pitch with runners on, Donnelly and Pinero are trick or treat - Snyder is the long guy and you yourself claim Taraves is a worthless bum - so what is left - a junk lefty closer with no experience in the role - too much of a gamble

2 you believe he can make it but the conversion is going to strain that shoulder and I rather not screw with it.


the difference is Tavares can go 6 or seven and take the loss while relieving the load off a tired bullpen if need be, Paps will be two and done for 3 days then 3 and done for a stretch and so on basically making him nothing more than snyder is right now for the next month - you want to lose him for a month?

[oldskool138]

Ok 2 things:
2) Schilling is a fat slob with a big mouth who only gets his fat ass off the computer and into the gym after the front office, media and fanbase drill it into his thick skull that he's fat.


Wow! How soon we forget 2004! I thought getting 21 wins and literally stitching his ankle back together bought him a enough goodwill for life! Apparently not.....

The dude is 40 years old and never had an athletic build. Cut him some slack. BTW, I find his candor refreshing.

[luso2kx]

1 you have faith in Manny and the others to set up a junk throwing closer?
I don't - Timlin CAN NOT pitch with runners on, Donnelly and Pinero are trick or treat - Snyder is the long guy and you yourself claim Taraves is a worthless bum - so what is left - a junk lefty closer with no experience in the role - too much of a gambleDFA Tavarez and call up Craig Breslow, who has been amazing in Pawtucket this season.

As for the rest of the pen, each one, except for Pineiro, have done their job admirable. Hell, Timlin now has an ERA under 4, which in itself is great to see. Donnelly's numbers were actually good before his DL stint, so I don't think he'll be bad and Snyder can do an inning or 2 from the 6th onward if need be.

Again, this pen has been doing it's job without the need for Papelbon. Why keep him there?

2 you believe he can make it but the conversion is going to strain that shoulder and I rather not screw with it.For starters, if he starts, rather than throwing (what he's doing now), he'll actually be pitching. You'd see his fastball drop to the 91-93 area rather than the 95-97 range it is now , but more use of his splitter, changeup and see him develop a curve. That's 4 decent-to-great pitches and all without causing as much strain to his shoulder as relieving is doing to him now.

Also, he'd pitch 1 day, and get at leat 4 days off to go through his strengthening program (as was initially perscribed by the doctors). We would be getting more out of him this way and have him in the role he was initially intended to have.


the difference is Tavares can go 6 or seven and take the loss while relieving the load off a tired bullpen if need be, Paps will be two and done for 3 days then 3 and done for a stretch and so on basically making him nothing more than snyder is right now for the next month - you want to lose him for a month?Dear God! Are you actually backing up the claim of "he's just the 5th starter so it's no problem"?

Every game is important and you should put the best guys on the field each day. Tavarbage is far from being the best option we could put out on the field every 5 days.

[3 Point Stan]

Ok 2 things:
PS: Like I said earier. What would be so different with Papelbon going 3-4 innings now and going more as the season went along as compared to Tavarbage always going 4 innings and getting lit up like a Roman Candle?
Here's the difference. You don't know what kind of a starter Paps is. But you DO know what kind of closer he is. You also are not going to get 95-96 out of him for 5+ innings. You'll get 92-93 with the occasional reaching back for 95-96 when you need a K. So potentially you're trading a lights-out closer for a guy who, in a starting role, A-) wouldn't physically be able to give you more than 5 innings out of the gate (if you're lucky)right away, and B-) might produce you no better numbers than that of Julian Tavarez - and then you still don't have a lights-out closer. And don't say Okajima because he doesn't have the same make-up of Paps to be a long-term closer. He's never even sniffed this level of success in Japan so when that happens, you're better off leaving the guy where he is. If it ain't broke....

But bottom line here, in the end, it would probably more easily to acquire a #4 or #5 started via trade to replace Tavarez than it would be to move Paps into a a starter role (a role that is physically taxing at this juncture) PLUS having to then try and find a lights-out closer with the K/BB ratio of Paps. It'd cost you a fortune in prospects.

The debate to move Paps from closer to starter in mid-season is like yelling "Put Bishop In!"

[luso2kx]

Also Mike. Trevor Hoffman is a "junk throwing closer" as well. Foulke in 2004 also threw junk.

Closers are OVERRATED

[luso2kx]

The debate to move Paps from closer to starter in mid-season is like yelling "Put Bishop In!"More like waiting for Mo Lewis to put Tavarez out of comission for a few months and have Papelbon take over.

[luso2kx]

Wow! How soon we forget 2004! I thought getting 21 wins and literally stitching his ankle back together bought him a enough goodwill for life! Apparently not.....

The dude is 40 years old and never had an athletic build. Cut him some slack. BTW, I find his candor refreshing.
2007 - 2004 = 3 years. Alot can happen in 3 years.

Schilling admitted to not being in shape when he came to Spring Training this year. And he's now getting mad that the media is pointing out the obivous that he's spending more time pplaying Everquest and updating is stupid blog rather than trying to shed weight and be the ace he was supposed to be on opening day.

He's getting the abuse he deserves right now. Yeah, it was great he pitched well in 2004. But that doesn't mean a damm thing in 2007.

[southcarolina]

Also Mike. Trevor Hoffman is a "junk throwing closer" as well. Foulke in 2004 also threw junk.

Closers are OVERRATED

But then anyone could have done what Foulke did in 2004 correct?

[Mikiemo83]

I am not saying keep Tavares in the 5th spot, no bring up Lester and let him audition up here until Shill is ready - he can not do any worse than tavares

IMO moving Paps now is too scary for me to risk the bright future of this kid with this kind of midseason move. this would be a panic move in my opinion

[luso2kx]

But then anyone could have done what Foulke did in 2004 correct?Who was closing for St. Louis last year?
And Florida in 2003?

Foulke closed those games, that was great. But let's not assume that, just because he did it, that nobody else could've as well.

[oldskool138]

He's getting the abuse he deserves right now. Yeah, it was great he pitched well in 2004. But that doesn't mean a damm thing in 2007.

*cough* 56-38 *cough*

How is bringing up the fact that he was out of shape in February relate to the fact that his 40 year old arm had tendinitis in June/July?

Plus, he says his arm felt better than it did in Spring Training. And, he hasn't really been messing with his blog since he's been on the DL.

[southcarolina]

Who was closing for St. Louis last year?
And Florida in 2003?

Foulke closed those games, that was great. But let's not assume that, just because he did it, that nobody else could've as well.

But its ok to assume that because he did do it, that someone else would have also?

[luso2kx]

Also, in 2003, we started the season with a closer by committee, that season almost landed us in the World Series had Grady Gump not left Pedro in too long.

The closer role is very overrated. The objective is to have a solid pen. Who pitches in the 9th isn't of as much importance as people make it out to be, especially if the guy comes in with a 3 run lead and nobody on.

[luso2kx]

But its ok to assume that because he did do it, that someone else would have also?
Why is that logic so hard to understand? You're making Foulke into some sort of Superman.

This is the Mariano Rivera Syndrome. Sox fans see the Yankees of years past and how Rivera would come into the 9th, and envy that they should have a copy of him. Of course, the Yankees had other guys that got the lead in the first 8 innings to begin with, but most tend to overlook that.

[southcarolina]

Closer by committee was an unmitigated disaster that season. The bullpen didnt turn around until the Sox acquired BY Kim, and installed him as the Closer.

EDIT:Time for work again. BBL

[luso2kx]

*cough* 56-38 *cough*And playing .500 ball since June 1st. That's not a very comforting thought.

[luso2kx]

Closer by committee was an unmitigated disaster that season. The bullpen didnt turn around until the Sox acquired BY Kim, and installed him as the Closer.So, in other words, they were able to establish a closer as the season went along, not be so hard pressed to have one right off the bat AND were able to be in the playoffs, only to not make it to the World Series due to a managerial gaffe?

Oh yeah, the pen outside Kim was dominating during the 2003 playoffs. If there was ever a case of how overrated the closer role was...

[Mikiemo83]

Williamson took over the role correct?

Lowe was bounced around filling many roles including team village bicycle

[luso2kx]

Williamson took over the role correct?

Lowe was bounced around filling many roles including team village bicycle
You're making my point for me. They swapped "closers" right in the middle of the playoffs and, not only missed a beat, but actually improved.

again, the closer role is very overrated.

[Mikiemo83]

You're making my point for me. They swapped "closers" right in the middle of the playoffs and, not only missed a beat, but actually improved.

again, the closer role is very overrated.
but the lack of confidence in the Closer du joir led to the failure to replace Pedro and the rest is history

[luso2kx]

but the lack of confidence in the Closer du joir led to the failure to replace Pedro and the rest is history
We all know that it wasn't the bullpen's fault. It was Grady Gump who refused to see how good the pen was in the playoffs. Can't blame the "loss of confidence" in the pen on the bullpen in that situation.

[southcarolina]

Luso...im not in the mood to debate today, but i just wanted to apologize for whining about you calling me out in this thread the other day. I literally had been awake for like 3 minutes and was still groggy and grumpy and whatever. What you posted wasnt really all that bad. I should have thicker skin than that

:)

[luso2kx]

Luso...im not in the mood to debate today, but i just wanted to apologize for whining about you calling me out in this thread the other day. I literally had been awake for like 3 minutes and was still groggy and grumpy and whatever. What you posted wasnt really all that bad. I should have thicker skin than that

:)No worries :)

[3 Point Stan]

Luso...im not in the mood to debate today, but i just wanted to apologize for whining about you calling me out in this thread the other day. I literally had been awake for like 3 minutes and was still groggy and grumpy and whatever. What you posted wasnt really all that bad. I should have thicker skin than that


Awe, crap. And here I was finalizing arrangements on a venue for the steel cage match.

Looks like I picked the wrong week to stop sniffin' glue!
http://mysite.verizon.net/svogl/98/lbridges.jpg
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e276/haveagoodshow/th_airplane.jpg